Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Hello, I'm Leigh Hatcher with the Growth Coaching International podcast. I'm in conversation with Annette Grey on using a solutions focused approach in coaching, work and, in fact, all of our conversations. Annette is Director of Strategy and Development and a senior leader with Growth Coaching International. She's been a key member of the growth coaching team since 2004. The solutions focused approach is her passion. Where does it come from?

Annette Gray:
Solution Focus, how we use it in the work that we do and the workshops that we run, has its roots in family therapy approach and it was actually developed by in Insoo Kim Berg and Steve de Shazer in Milwaukee, in Wisconsin. They actually stumbled across it working with therapy patients that were wanting to make progress and find an efficient way of making progress in terms of their issue or problem that they brought to the table. What happens in traditional therapy, as you know, it's a bit of a talking cure.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Annette Gray:
It goes on.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Annette Gray:
It can go on quite a while. What they stumbled across is actually if you don't focus on the problem and you focus on what's wanted, faster progress was made and particularly around, you don't have to delve into childhood problems and where things came from-

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Okay.

Annette Gray:
To make progress.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Annette Gray:
It was more about noticing when the problem existed less and what was that about or the problem didn't exist at all. They had examples of people who were alcoholics, but they weren't an alcoholic every single day. There was days that they had less than others. What was happening in those days and that's what Solution Focus is about is finding what works and doing more of it. It's not about understanding the problem more. It's not problem-phobic. It's not about ignoring the problem.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
No.

Annette Gray:
It's just getting enough of what the problem is to redirected-ed. It's obvious you don't want that, what is it you do want? For what they found, Kim Berg and de Shazer, was around they wanted a happy family life. It wasn't about drinking less, it was about the benefit of drinking less.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Annette Gray:
Yeah.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Which is a different emphasis entirely.

Annette Gray:
That's right. Yeah. Then what happened is it got momentum and progress where others were going, 'Hang on, there's something in this." Then it went into the corporate world and Mark McGergow and Paul Z. Jackson were two of the main sort-of pioneers of taking it into the corporate world from the therapy world. They devised a set of tools and principles that could be used in organisations rather than in a therapy approach. That's what we use today. We have relationships with both those pioneers.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Wow.

Annette Gray:
In the different programs that we run in Solution Focus.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
How would someone using this approach actually apply it and practise it?

Annette Gray:
I like Mark McGergow's definitions of what being Solutions Focused is. That is change is happening all the time, our role is to identify useful change and amplify it. I had an example today, when I was doing this keynote, because I coached in front of the group. The woman's topic was around getting her photos in order. I think, like all of us, it's a problem since we've gone digital.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
She got an answer?
Annette Gray:
She did.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Really?

Annette Gray:
She did.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I'm listening and all ears.

Annette Gray:
She said, "I've got all my photos on my computer from 2000. Yet, there's no order to it."

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
No.
Annette Gray:
And I said, "So, what is the order you're wanting?" And she said, "I want them, because I have two children, I want them with school events, children's parties or children events and family holidays. That's all I want. For each year from 2000." So I asked her, and being Solution Focused is so, "Are any of those years in order now?" And she said, "Yes," she said, "2016 and 2017 I've got in that order." Being Solution Focused is focusing on what is already working.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Annette Gray:
And a hint of what you're after which is those years. How were you able to do that and how can you apply that to the other years. Then what is a small step you're going to take to start. That's the hardest part for people is taking the first small step.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I'm sure it turned a light on for her.

Annette Gray:
It did.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I'm going to do this.

Annette Gray:
It did.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Annette Gray:
Yeah.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
That's how it applies in practise, how else does the theory say it can apply in practise?

Annette Gray:
I think there's two aspects of it. There's a set of tools that we teach people to use, a set of six tools. The other aspect is around how do you embody it and how do you be solution focused in all aspects of your life at work and at home?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Annette Gray:
That's the hard part. Learning the tools and rattling off the questions related to the tools is quite easy to pick up, but to embody it all the time, that's hard because we love problem talk. We love gossiping and we love talking about what's wrong.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
That's an interesting point and revealing. You're right actually.

Annette Gray:
Yeah, well we live in a deficit world. All our news, as you would know from

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Annette Gray:
Being a reporter and journalist, all our news is about what's wrong in the world, not what's right in the world.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I say to people who say, "Why can't the news be good news?" I say, "Because you like bad news. Do you think Rupert Murdoch would have continued to report bad news if people loved good?" We all do love it.

Annette Gray:
Yeah.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Sadly, I suppose.

Annette Gray:
The impact of that in organisations is if we're always talking about problems it actually takes us to a place of unresourceful-ness.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Okay.

Annette Gray:
It disconnects us, whereas being solution focused and in other terms, progress focused, it actually connects and actually focuses on people towards the future of "Let's get clear what we want, we realise we don't want that. What is we do want?"

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I remember someone making a suggestion that this is kind of like a dance.

Annette Gray:
Exactly. I, just yesterday, I listened to a YouTube clip of Haesun Moon and she said, "It is, it's like a dance between the person you're coaching or the person with the problem and the coach or practitioner. You don't know what question you're going to ask until you hear what response they've given." It's actually what's going on in between the two people, you're actually solution building between the two of you, which is harder to do on your own

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Annette Gray:
But having someone ask you the questions of, "So, has there been a time where this has worked well for you?" Or, "Has there been a time that you've made more progress on this than you have now? How did you do that?" It's having a beginner's mind, as the person who's the coach asking, being solution focused, is not having any set idea of what's going to come from the person, or "I'm going to fix this person." It's more about using what's here and using the strengths and resourcefulness of the person that you're talking to

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
It's quite a skill knowing what question to ask though and that's the product of your training, really.
Annette Gray:
That's right.Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah.
Annette Gray:
We show questions that work for us, but it's also the person coming up with questions that work for them that are authentic to them.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Can we talk about leaders and how this is going to apply to them, specifically?

Annette Gray:
I think, specifically, for leaders if you change the conservation, you change everything else that surrounds it. Solution focus is a very respectful way of collaborating, interacting, and working with people because you're working with their strengths. What have they already got? What have they already tried? Rather than telling them what they need to be doing.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.


Annette Gray:
It can be from any conversation. It doesn't have to necessarily be a coaching conversation, it can be, "Have you got five minutes? I've got this problem. I'm stuck. I don't know where to go." And a few simple questions can actually, we call it the SF-Switch, the solution focus switch to, "Wow, that sounds like that's tough where you're at."

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Annette Gray:
"Sounds like you don't want that, so what is it you do want?" And helping people articulate that, you just see their energy change from, "Oh, I'm stuck," to "Oh, okay."

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
A-ha. Yes. You're listening to the Growth Coaching International Podcast. I'm in conversation with our Director of Strategy and Development, Annette Grey. Here's an important question, with Annette's reference to five minutes, this approach sounds like it could be really good for our time pressed leaders.

Annette Gray:
Definitely.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah.

Annette Gray:
Yep. What you're doing here is asking, not telling, which is basically the premise of what good coaching is.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Annette Gray:
But you're also focused quickly on progress, helping people to make progress pretty fast and that's why we define, "So, what is it you want? What would that look like if you had that? What difference would that make to you? Have you been in this situation for you before? What worked for you at that point? Are you able to try that now? What might be a small step that you could take to start moving toward that?"

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah.

Annette Gray:
It can come down to as simple as three questions, what is it you want, where are you now, what will you do next?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
How receptive is the person being coached? Does that require a skill?

Annette Gray:
The staff member or the person being coached, people sort of look at you strangely like, "What's this question about?" They're a bit confused because some people just love dwelling in the problem. Yeah.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah. Or I wanted to be told what the solution is.

Annette Gray:
Exactly and that dependency on the leader to, well you get paid to be the leader so you just tell me what I've got to do

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I bet.
Annette Gray:
And they've always been in this place of helplessness.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Annette Gray:
It's strange for people to start with, but you see it physically a change in people. Maybe I show you that of the difference of having problem talk and solution talk.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You notice a physical change in people?

Annette Gray:
You do.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Can you tell me what that looks like?

Annette Gray:
I think it would be a really good idea if I could model it on you.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
On me?

Annette Gray:
Yes.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I'm the coachee. Okay. I'm always up for [crosstalk 00:11:45].

Annette Gray:
You're the coachee or the staff member.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Hit me with it Annette.

Annette Gray:
Okay. Tell me, Leigh, one of your challenges at work at the moment.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
It's probably a creeping growth in more and more work and more than I want.

Annette Gray:
So what

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Sounds rather indulgent doesn't it?

Annette Gray:
So why is this such a problem?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Because I'm at that point in life where I feel I need a bit of space and I can afford that. I've worked hard over 40 plus years in broadcast journalism and I think I'd like to cash in a bit of that. Very happy to keep working, I love doing these, but I also want a bit of space.

Annette Gray:
What are the worst emotions you have around this?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Frustration, sometimes despair that I just haven't got time to kind of breathe, and I'm also juggling happy, precious, family stuff as well. That's also what I want to carve out that space for, but when I get overwhelmed my head kind of starts hurting and I think, "I can't do all this." I really don't want to. Doesn't apply to these wonderful GCI podcasts though, I'll tell you.

Annette Gray:
What are the biggest barriers then, to making progress here?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Pleasing people probably and wanting to fulfil expectations and desires of others, although I've said to lots of people, some of who I've mentored not coaching, everyone when they ask you to do something, they only think their thing is the one thing that you're being asked to do, they can't know the totality of all the juggling balls that you've got up in the air. I suppose, I want to please people and I want to be agreeable and help them out.

Annette Gray:
Okay, so let's try another set of questions.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Okay.

Annette Gray:
Tell me what you'd like to achieve in relation to this challenge?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
A continued sense of decisiveness, I was going to say, a greater sense, but I am actually decisive and I can say no and often do, but I think to continue that progress and continue to arrest a galloping out of control workload, so I get some space.

Annette Gray:
If this was working well, what would be happening?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I'd be doing a happy, measured, three days a week work.

Annette Gray:
Great.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Podcast, video, some consulting. I've only been doing this for a few months and it's really already reached a very happy load, but a couple of times I've started think "This is getting out of control. This is more than I want."

Annette Gray:
Okay. When you have it, got it just right-

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Annette Gray:
Yep, the three days

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah.

Annette Gray:
That you're after, how are you able to do that?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Probably by saying no, continuing to say no, and continuing to organise my time well. I'm decisive, I'm efficient, I work fast because I've had to in my past life, but I need to kind of keep on containing the amount of stuff and the juggling balls I've got in the air.

Annette Gray:
You may have answered this question, but let's see how it lands.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Annette Gray:
What would others notice you doing if you were managing this challenge well?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Do you mean my wife?

Annette Gray:
Possibly?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I hope she's listening to this. No, she'd notice a more measured and calm and agreeable person, because those closest to you are the ones you always take it out on.

Annette Gray:
Yes.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I think she'd notice a bit more humour, a bit less [inaudible 00:15:39] at the load that I'm carrying. Am I giving away too much?

Annette Gray:
No. This is good. Because all these people get impacted.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I'm finding it helpful. I really genuinely am finding it helpful.

Annette Gray:
What would your clients or potential clients notice if you were managing this challenge well?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
To be honest, I don't think they'd notice. I think potential clients might often be disappointed. I'm already doing that. I'm able to do this, but I suppose I just need to keep a focus on, "Okay, you need to keep doing this." I'm in the happy position of being able to sometimes say, "I just don't have the capacity for that." It's probably more the potential clients, because I'm very focused on deadlines, very focused on getting stuff done. I never leave it, but more potential people [inaudible 00:16:31] disappointed. I had one instance this week where someone rang me up and made me a very significant offer to take on some work and I just said, "I cannot do it this week." It was an urgent thing.

Annette Gray:
Oh.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
To be able to be free and relaxed about doing that, that's what I think they'd notice.

Annette Gray:
If you could take one single action, to move this forward, what would it be?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I'd book a day next week where I'd fish. I'd take my boat out.

Annette Gray:
Awesome.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
That hasn't happened for a few weeks, as this has kind of been galloping. Part of my new life was to leave myself open to take my little boat out and go fishing probably once a fort night and I haven't done that for more than probably four weeks now. Watch this space Annette, if I go fishing

Annette Gray:
Which day might it be?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
It might be Thursday. It might be

Annette Gray:
Okay.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Depending on what Georgina, your marvellous marketing person has for me on Thursday, but I've got Thursday kind of in my sights, so watch that space.

Annette Gray:
Okay. What you've experienced then

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah
Annette Gray:
Is two sets of questions. One which was focusing on the problem

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.
Annette Gray:
And understanding the problem more

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You're not afraid to confront the problem. It's not about avoidance.

Annette Gray:
It's not about avoidance, but we don't need to know the ins and outs of the problem, yeah?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Not too much information. Yes.

Annette Gray:
Yeah, so we only need just enough to redirect it

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yep.

Annette Gray:
To what is it you do want?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Okay.

Annette Gray:
So the second set of questions were around solution talk

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yep.

Annette Gray:
Yep and the lens was around what's working and how do you do more of that.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
And I actually had the answers.

Annette Gray:
You did. I didn't give you any of the answers.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah. It's quite a skill. It's a very good skill, Annette. That's why you do this stuff. Can I ask one specific question? I remember you said earlier that you can notice a physical effect with people, did you notice it with me? I wasn't aware of it.

Annette Gray:
I did.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Oh did you? What did I do?

Annette Gray:
So the problem questions

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Annette Gray:
You sat back a bit, your head went down, your hands went down

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Wow.

Annette Gray:
You could see it physically, you're into the problem. It was like you were getting more stuck into the problem. Then the second set

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
How amazing.

Annette Gray:
You sat up. You were animated with your hands. It was like you were in your fishing boat thinking about the fishing. It's a- you can see it physically on people.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
That is- I feel I've given away a bit too much, but you do notice that often?

Annette Gray:
You do notice it.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah, what an amazing thing.

Annette Gray:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). This is about helping people make progress, not keeping them stuck. That's what the questions do.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
If someone wanted to know more about developing the solution focus approach, how would they go about it Annette?

Annette Gray:
We infuse most of our programs with some of the tools, but we're not deliberately focused on it all these programs. Two of the programs, one the solutions focus master class, which teaches the six solution focus tools, the five conversation expanders and the principles around solution focus. Whereas in our other programs, we use the tools but we don't go into how they work.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Okay.

Annette Gray:
The Solution Focus Master Class is really about understanding what each tool is about, what are the questions you use around each tool and how do you have these sorts of conversations. Our other program, Raising Performance, actually looks at Solution Focus through the topic of Raising Performance. How do you have performance conversations in a solutions focused way?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You're very good. I'm not surprised at all that you're very good at this, but you are. I feel like there's a fishing expedition coming on.

Annette Gray:
Yes.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
For me next week thanks to you, Annette. Thank you so much for a great conversation.

Annette Gray:
You're very welcome.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You've been listening to the Growth Coaching International Podcast. I'm Leigh Hatcher, all the details of these coaching programs and much more are on our website,www.growthcoaching.com.au

footnote, I really did go fishing the next Thursday. This thing works.

References:

• De Shazer, Steve and Insoo Kim Berg, "The Brief Therapy Tradition." In: John H. Weakland, and Wendel A. Ray (eds.) Propagations: Thirty Years of Influence From the Mental Research Institute. Binghamton, NY: The Haworth Press, 1995, pp. 249–252.
• Berg, Insoo Kim, More than Miracles: The State of the Art of Solution-Focused Brief Therapy. 2007.
• You Tube, Heasun Moon Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdArvqKYD38